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Today's Vote

if it's about Cardiff.. Sport, Entertainment, Transportation, Business, Development Projects, Leisure, Eating, Drinking, Nightlife, Shopping, Train Spotting! etc.. then we want it here!
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Zach

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Re: Today's Vote

PostWed Jun 29, 2016 11:29 pm

Yes, I can now see I made a mistake, I should have voted Remain.
You are right, good arguments, well constructed.
I now when I am bet.

ok can you now arrange another vote for me please?
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RandomComment

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Re: Today's Vote

PostThu Jun 30, 2016 12:14 am

Great, we can finally agree then ;-)
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Frank

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Re: Today's Vote

PostMon Jul 18, 2016 1:39 pm

I'd love to hear from RC about what is happening right now because I can't fathom it. The FTSE 100 AND 250 don't really seem to have been massively affected by Brexit. The pound has fallen to $1.33, though the dollar has strengthened a bit. Now the FTSE 100 is very reliant on foreign earnings so that's a bit random but what is going on? I keep hearing apocalyptic warnings about the costs of Brexit but the markets aren't really reacting. All I can offer is a few theories:

1) Particular sectors are going to be hit hard so they are making a lot of noise. This doesn't reflect the whole picture.
2) For all the apparent noise out there the markets simply haven't taken on board what Brexit means. They're in denial.
3) Being really counter-intuitive the markets believe that Brexit would be truly awful for the UK economy. So much so that they're convinced we're not actually going to leave just as the US wasn't going to let the Banks collapse in 2008.

Whatever happens I can only see bad things for the construction sector. Exporters might benefit but surely big projects will be deferred at the very least.
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RandomComment

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Re: Today's Vote

PostMon Jul 18, 2016 2:09 pm

I think it is important to bear in mind that economists never said "the sky will fall in". Scenarios for the economic hit from Brexit ranged from something like 2% to 7% of GDP. Sizeable (and not a price I felt worth paying) but not the end of the world.

To date, we have only limited economic information, but the signs are of a negative impact, especially in terms of property and capital investment. Commercial and residential property markets have become quite bunged up and investment decisions do seem to have slowed down. Too early to say what the scale or how long lasting.

The most direct way in which we are all poorer is the fall in the value of the pound. Its down about 10% - so everything we buy from abroad is going to be more expensive. I'm noticing that straight away with holidays to Brazil and Germany - Brexit will already have cost be a couple of hundred quid! It will start feeding through into consumer prices of goods in the UK over the next year or so (petrol probably quicker).

The fall in the value of the pound is one reason why the FTSE 100 and 250 aren't doing so bad in pounds terms. One way of thinking of it is that while the FTSE 100 is up and FTSE 250 down not too much in £ terms, they are down in $ terms, which matters to international investors. Another way of thinking about it is that around 80% of the earnings of FTSE 100 companies are from outside the UK, and the weaker pound means those earnings are now worth more in £ terms.

If you look at those sectors most exposed to the cyclical parts of the UK economy - banking, property - then they are down a fair bit, although they have made up some ground.

I think the markets are also pricing in what we might term "liberal Brexit" - in effect close-to-full access to the single market, probably at the expense of continued substantial budget contributions, and/or close to full freedom of movement of people. Whether or not this is acceptable to the British people and/or negotiatiable remains to be seen. But there are strong forces pushing for this sort of Brexit-lite deal (which, incidentally, requires the application of many EU single market rules, without voting rights).

The boost exporters will get from the lower £ is overhyped in my view: a lot of the components that go into exports are actually imported (and will cost more) - especially in the sectors that have been doing so well over the last few years, like cars. I think the clear preference for big exporters in these sectors for Remaining in the EU shows which side they think their bread is buttered too.

And even if some exporters do okay out of the depreciation - overall it makes us poorer. I've been increasingly frustrated by the economic illteracy of some of the UK's media when they talk about our currency buying less of what others produce as making us somehow better off, when it clearly does the opposite.

http://www.ifs.org.uk/publications/8361

"There is a fallacy knocking around that somehow economics tells us that a weaker currency is good because it promotes exports. Part of that fallacy is based on a truly fundamental misunderstanding of what economics is all about, which goes a goes a bit like this. Exports are good and imports are bad. A lower exchange rate makes exports cheaper and imports more expensive, so there will be more of the former and less of the latter. So we’ll be better off.

This argument is plain wrong. You don’t make British people better off by getting them to work hard to make stuff for others to enjoy on the cheap, while themselves paying more for things produced overseas. You do it by ensuring, through effective policies on education and skills and competition and infrastructure and trade, that British workers produce more in each hour they work so that the actual value of what they produce is higher, so they can earn more and consume more."
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Frank

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Re: Today's Vote

PostMon Jul 18, 2016 3:58 pm

I would never argue that a weaker currency is 'good' in and of itself. But plainly if you believe in having a free-floating currency there are times when the value needs to fall. Fighting against that never leads anywhere. The endless flow of capital into London, some of it from some quite questionable sources, has done a great deal to imbalance the economy. Amazing to think that we were once looking at $2.1 to the £. If it'd been around £1.40 all along we'd have been much better off.
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RandomComment

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Re: Today's Vote

PostMon Jul 18, 2016 4:21 pm

You are correct to say that artificially trying to raise or lower exchange rates can cause problems. And you are right that volatility in exchange rates as capital ebbs and flows is not that good either - as it increases uncertainty, making financial and business planning more difficult (creating margins for Banks to create hedging schemes, for instance). A weaker exchange rate, by encouraging inflation, can also make "real" adjustments easier. The fairly substantial real wage falls we saw between 2010 - 2012 were made easier by the weaker £ and the resulting higher inflation, than if employers had actually tried cutting nominal wages, for instance.

But saying Britons would be better off at an exchange rate below its actual average level is precisely the misunderstanding of economics that I mentioned above. To simplify: the aim is surely for us to work (as little as possible) to live not live to work (as much as possible). Making us work more to be able to afford the same amount of imported goods.. is not making us better off.

Incidentally, the $2+ levels were very briefly reached in 2007-08ish, at the height of the pre-crash boom. Since then the £ has moved (until now) between about $1.40 - $1.60ish, mostly at the upper end of that range.
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Frank

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Re: Today's Vote

PostMon Jul 18, 2016 4:27 pm

Of course exporters will always bemoan a strong currency. I have nothing against the currency appreciating - if exports were booming and we were running a current account surplus it would make sense. But that never seems to happen. Could it be our propensity to sell the country off to whoever wants to buy it (including land and property) and max the credit card?
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RandomComment

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Re: Today's Vote

PostMon Jul 18, 2016 4:45 pm

In principle, there's nothing wrong with running a current account deficit indefinitely - provided your ability to service the debts you accrue keeps up with the interest/earnings flows that need to be paid out. Indeed, an ability to fund such a deficit is generally a sign of confidence in an economy - its when that confidence evaporates that things get tough (there was a risk, and probably still is some risk, that the UK struggles to fund its current account deficit, following Brexit).
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Zach

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Re: Today's Vote

PostMon Jul 18, 2016 5:45 pm

I wasn't really going to post on this thread again, but why not....

American bank signs £300m deal for office block in London
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-36826974

Japanesse buys ARM for £24bn
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-36827769

FTSE 100 record high
FTSE 250 back to pre-Brexit levels
https://uk.finance.yahoo.com/video/ftse ... 00627.html

Countries queue up for talks on free trade deals with the UK
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-36818055

Cardiff building boom continues.
http://www.constructionenquirer.com/201 ... tion-deal/

Some people don't like or are just plain scared of change, especially economists!!
But the sky hasn't fallen in, but it could be worse you live and work in EU France.

PS I see the good ole Germans are going to veto TTIP over the bread and butter mountain
http://www.euractiv.com/section/trade-s ... et-access/ :lol:
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Lyndon

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Re: Today's Vote

PostMon Jul 18, 2016 6:30 pm

Zach wrote:Japanesse buys ARM for £24bn
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-36827769


:lol:


All our companies are now incredibly cheap in Yen terms, and the Japanese are making off with the Crown Jewels of our technology companies for a bargain basement price.

Forgive me if I don't LOL.
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