Today's Vote

So what's the plan then leavers?

most people are racist.

utter bollocks

What is most racist is the foreign policy of successive UK governments, bombing defenceless dark-skinned people year after year. The cognitive dissonance of the posters bleating on here is something to behold. Did you vote Tory or Labour since 2003?

no, I tend not to vote as it's acceptance of the corrupt concept of state.

So what's the plan then leavers?

go down to croups and put it all on red

On migrant integration - I can very well believe what you say. I think in some areas where a 'critical mass' of migrants from particular ethnic or religious backgrounds have concentrated, mixing has decreased. Thats probably especially noticeable in places like Cardiff and Liverpool where old docks communities were very diverse but where no single minority community had that critical mass. Its also fair to say ethnic minority people can be racist - against whites and against other minorities, and even against themselves!

But I think this is a bit of a straw man in the EU referendum. These are issues largely for non-European migration. European migrants share much more culturally with the Welsh and British. Yes they may continue to speak Polish among themselves and go to Polish shops. But they drink, they watch football, and their kids integrate fully at school and become a Brit with a funny sounding surname.

On your last point. Wow. This is where crazy comes out. While it is increasingly clear that the rationale for intervention in Iraq and Libya was ill-thought-out, and the planning for "what next" simply lacking in some cases... one can in no way say that UK policy is "to bomb defenceless dark-skinned people". The UK military (and US military for that matter) take great pains to avoid civilian casualities. Targets are not selected when collateral damage may be high. The difference between that and Russia or China... or even more so the terrorists who go out of their way to kill civilians.. is incalculable.

You are just showing yourself to be even more unhinged than I expected with this line of reasoning.

Insulting my sanity shows you up for what you really are: a "progressive" gravy-trainer wedded to a fascist ideology. Using Occam's Razor when examining UK foreign policy over the past 10, 50 or 500 years one can certainly say that the main aim is to maintain the Crown's/City's preeminence, with one of the main tools used being that of killing and terrorising dark-skinned people.

Look up "cognitive dissonance". It is what you are suffering from. I have studied psychology at two universities and have a masters in the subject, so I'm an expert compared to you Randy.

you were at university before I was an itch in my daddy's pants so stop playing that card as it is meaningless.

Cambo wasn't insulting your intelligence, he was making an observation based on the cyber diarrhea that emanates from your keyboard

So what's the plan then leavers?

go down to croups and put it all on red

Best I've heard so far.

What an utter clusterfuck this is. The EU referendum used as a proxy Tory party leader contest, although BoJo and Gove didn't actually want to win at this moment in time. Who, outside UKIP, would trigger Article 50 knowing the shitstorm it will bring?

I think RC sums it up well. We're in a sorry mess. It's not just England and Wales though. The same is true in the States with Trump and across Europe - one of the reasons they are so angry with us for leaving. I agree the issue of EU migrants got mixed up with the immigration issue generally. I'm going to be bold and say that if there had been no migration crisis and Merkel hadn't made her pledge, we would not have voted to leave. If there had been no Eurozone crisis, in particular the huge youth unemployment in the south, we would not have voted for leave.

One thing makes me angry though. So called progressives engaging in the most blatant snobbery and an attempt by the mainstream elite to just blame everything on the disingenuous Leave campaign. The map of how everyone voted was an almost perfect fit with prosperity, excluding Scotland and a few young multi racial inner cities. Almost no-one seems to be asking themselves why those people feel so angry. Politicians felt they could be ignored. Perhaps if you want to encourage people to be civic minded, treating them like cattle (eg Sports Direct) doesn't help.

Frank. The thing that makes me very angry though is these same people who voted Leave out of anger, out of a sense that any change has to be better than the present, and above all, that a reduction in immigration would solve many problems.. will be disappointed.

Because the leading lights of Leave in large part don't want a significant clamp down on immigration; they want to further pare back the welfare state (a little of this now seems almost unavoidable given the likely public finance hit); and further deregulate the economy. A lot of people are about to feel betrayed and about to find yes, things could be worse...

Anyway, the strange alliance we seem to be witnessing here between an "anti-imperialist" Welsh nationalist.. and Gove, Johnson, Farage and Fox.. is something to behold! Perhaps there is an ulterior motive at play here. Is it to destabilise the UK in the hope of some revolutionary uprising?

Or is simpler? Is it a simple class of trolling. Because as before the referendum, there was no attempt to actually engage with my arguments. To refute what I said with some evidence, some figures, some cited research. Instead it was some pseudo-academic jargon, and a few insults. I would think someone who had studied these issues could muster a little more.

I'd actually relish a debate about the role the "City" (or 'finance') has played in UK history. I think we could have an interesting debate about how WWI and WWII fit into that narrative (you can probably spin it either way). Or on the perniciousness of UK imperialism - largely a private affair that the state got more involved in in the latter half of the 19th century - compared to that of other countries.

I suspect some Welsh nationalists wanted a Brexit vote so as to spark the opportunity for Welsh independence. The reason I at least feel energised about the result even if I didn't vote for it, is we need a fundamental political debate in this country. I presume we are now going to get one. There seems to be a straightforward choice: we can control immigration or stay in the single market. The Tories will obviously side with the latter in particular to preserve the city/EU passports etc. But it could be an almighty debate and I do worry that the nationalism fuelled by the referendum won't subside. Presumably Ukip will scream betrayal and ho knows where it goes from there.

Zach, you obviously aren't too bright. It's a shame here the electorate here has outdone the Americans for the stupidity stakes.....?

What are you on about, I struggle to even read your comments, let alone agree with them?

The UK won't be in the EU any more, big deal! people/businesses/vested interests will get over it.
Life will return to normal.
The earth will still spin.
England will still lose at football.


As for why Jolly Jockland voted a different way?

1.6m people voted for Scottish independence
1.6m people voted to Remain, in Scotland. (with the expectation that this will lead to another independence referendum)

On migrant integration - I can very well believe what you say. I think in some areas where a 'critical mass' of migrants from particular ethnic or religious backgrounds have concentrated, mixing has decreased. Thats probably especially noticeable in places like Cardiff and Liverpool where old docks communities were very diverse but where no single minority community had that critical mass. Its also fair to say ethnic minority people can be racist - against whites and against other minorities, and even against themselves!

But I think this is a bit of a straw man in the EU referendum. These are issues largely for non-European migration. European migrants share much more culturally with the Welsh and British. Yes they may continue to speak Polish among themselves and go to Polish shops. But they drink, they watch football, and their kids integrate fully at school and become a Brit with a funny sounding surname.

On your last point. Wow. This is where crazy comes out. While it is increasingly clear that the rationale for intervention in Iraq and Libya was ill-thought-out, and the planning for "what next" simply lacking in some cases... one can in no way say that UK policy is "to bomb defenceless dark-skinned people". The UK military (and US military for that matter) take great pains to avoid civilian casualities. Targets are not selected when collateral damage may be high. The difference between that and Russia or China... or even more so the terrorists who go out of their way to kill civilians.. is incalculable.

You are just showing yourself to be even more unhinged than I expected with this line of reasoning.

Insulting my sanity shows you up for what you really are: a "progressive" gravy-trainer wedded to a fascist ideology. Using Occam's Razor when examining UK foreign policy over the past 10, 50 or 500 years one can certainly say that the main aim is to maintain the Crown's/City's preeminence, with one of the main tools used being that of killing and terrorising dark-skinned people.

Look up "cognitive dissonance". It is what you are suffering from. I have studied psychology at two universities and have a masters in the subject, so I'm an expert compared to you Randy.

you were at university before I was an itch in my daddy's pants so stop playing that card as it is meaningless.

Cambo wasn't insulting your intelligence, he was making an observation based on the cyber diarrhea that emanates from your keyboard

I finished my masters in 2005. And Randy was questioning my sanity, as well as insulting my intelligence.